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October 10, 2007

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Dave Hendrickson

Michael:

In regards to your fourth item here, a "seeker-sensitive" church is a place of worship where the message is designed to entice, invite, or tailored to the unbeliever equally or more so than to the believer. The principle behind this mindset is that Sunday worship service should be a primary means of evangelism, and consequently, the sermons, songs, and activities are arranged in a way to try to get the unsaved into a relationship with Christ.

It sounds like a great idea, of inviting the unsaved into our worship for conversion, but there are several reasons why the seeker-sensitive mindset is Biblically unsound. First, as it says in Romans 3, there are none that seek after God. What people seek after are experiences, something where they get a buzz, and things that please them. They do not, by default, have an innate desire to find or have a relationship with the Living God. Only when God calls them through the Holy Spirit do they then pursue God adamantly, and they would go through anything to learn more about and worship Him.

Second, church is designed to be for the believers of Christ coming together for worship. Certainly, unsaved people may come into our services and see what is going on, but the message, praise, and activities are intended for those who believe. The Bible says that the preaching of the cross is foolishness to them that perish; if a message is equally designed for the congregation and for the unbelievers, and the unbelievers do not see the message as odd, chances are that the message was not the true Gospel. It is not the meat or milk Paul describes in 1 Corinthians 3. Additionally, some things like the Lord's Supper (Communion) are expressly for those who have repented, put their full trust in Christ, and after careful self-examination (1 Corinthians 11).

Last, when we have services that try to put together believers and unbelievers, we run into potential problems with the cautionary verses in 2 Corinthians 6. We are not to be unequally yoked or to have concord with darkness. Harsh words, but in the church setting, this is one of the worst places to unify ourselves with unbelievers. Remember, these people are not after God by default, so why would their interests want to harmonize with the congregation?

We are called unequivocally to evangelize to the unsaved, to get them saved. It is a huge shame that so many believers have never shared the Gospel, preached, passed a tract, or prayed for someone who may one day go to Hell, and miss out on knowing intimately Jesus Christ. But the responsibility of doing this should not be a function of the gathering of believers in church. Church is for discipleship, fellowship, and for Christians primarily. May an unsaved person hear the Gospel and get saved in our services? If so, praise God all the more, and shout Hallelujah! Should that be a reason to be a "seeker-sensitive" church? No.

--
Dave

Jack Fussell

Mike,
I think "hard" preaching in a modern context is what our generation is looking for. If we were in the same country I'd have to give you a visit. Todd Johnston speaks highly is doing there. I'm living overseas with a passion for the church. I'm writing a series called "Imagine" on my blog. I'd love to hear your thoughts on it.
Jack Fussell

www.camelcrossing.net

jason scroggins

on the seeker sesitive church idea...
i've been a christian for almost 10 years now. i'm still a seeker. i really believe that if i ever get to a point that i dont have to seek anymore, i'm in trouble. i cant put God in a box and say that i have him figured out nor can i ever say that i have the faith figured out.
so looking back at the "seeker sensitive" church, i think it's best to understand that we should all be seekers. who among us has it figured out. i promise you, i will quit my job and spend my time with that individual so that i too can have life figured out. i think our energies would be better spent if we didnt walk around acting like we're not seeking and instead be honest with our selves and others about what we're struggling with and live out the faith together just like Christ prayed for us to in john 17.
if i could put together the perfect church, there would be leaders, but they would be humble. they would confess their battles and we all would take part in one anothers hurts joys, struggles, gains, etc. our common goal would be to be just like christ, doing exactly what he did in his day. i mean, isnt that why we call ourselves christians, because we follow christ? my church would live out what christ said for us to live "so our light would shine before men and praise God in heaven." it would be a community. not the rich not the poor, not the left, not the right, not the seeker, not the elite. just one body, being honest with ones self and each other and to GOd. i think its so important that we blend services with the lost and the saved. i think it's important to explain why we take communion and how communion is a symbol of our link to a God that loves us and gave us a chance, that blood and body that was broken for us. and if someone chooses not to take, then that should be ok. hopefully that individual would be encouraged to be honest about him/herself and their life and the truth about their life would lead them to the ultimate truth.
my question: what is the church? is it a gathering for the elite that know scripture (that sounds like a familiar brood of vipers i heard someone once mention). is it a place where the precious message of God is watered down to sell an individual on an idea that is caught up in self worth? is it a building, bricks and mortar, where people can come and be safe from the outside world? or is it people doing life together with the common goal of exposing people to God who already loves them and wants to be in a relationship with them. the church should be appealing to the lost. they should want to come and be a part of a family. especially people that dont have a family, who have been hurt, raped, addicted to drugs, robbed, beaten, slandered, picked on, the ones who smell bad, dont dress cool, dont really get it socially, and those that just dont know. i believe christ would want to draw them in just like he would the rich, the comfortable, the smart, the talented, etc. We can all be a part of the body and that was the point. Christ came to seek and to save those that are lost. he left us, sent his spirit to guide us and a book to show us how he did it and how we should do it. the church is not a country club set up to cater. it's a place where life is lived. real life, good times and bad. bring the lost. bring the saved. we will join together and those that dont know christ will either want to know him, or reject him. either way, they should be exposed to God. exposing someone to God is evangelism. i heard one time from a mand that knows the bible (my dad), that in the original text, the great commission says "AS YOU GO, make disciples."
that blows the door off of the idea of evangelism. that two letter word makes it something that you are as opposed to something that you do. just a thought.
anyway, be the hands and feet of christ and people will see God.
those are just my thoughts on the church. seeker sensitive or not.

Dave Hendrickson

Jason:

A couple of things in regard to your post. First, I would say that I have things, "figured out" pretty well. A perfect, loving, and holy God created the world and everything in it. Man sinned against Him, and consequently, death entered the world. Because of our sins, we all deserve to go to Hell. But God is so loving that He gave His only Son to suffer and die in our place, all for His glory. We repent of our sins, put our trust in Him, and He is so good that He will welcome us into Heaven one day.

Now, how He does things from day to day can be a wonderful mystery, and I can never claim to understand how He could be so loving. That I am willing to admit. But if you are still seeking for something beyond the truth in Christ, I suggest that something is wrong. Learning each day? Yes. Growing in holiness and perfection each day? Yes. Loving God and looking at Him in awe more each day? Yes. Seeking for something when you should have the answers as a Christian? That doesn't sound right.

Second, here is a challenge with regards to your perspective of what a church should or should not be doing: where can we find a place in scripture where an unbelieving, unregenerate person is to be brought into a church for evangelism? All the examples I can see in the Bible show the church as a congregation of believers, and the precepts in areas such as 1 2 Corinthians, 1 2 Peter, and 1 2 Timothy describe the duties of church services and fellowship as being for the saved. There are tons of stories of people becoming believers and then entering into the church, such as Paul himself, but I cannot see where unbelievers are to be brought in as-is.

I sincerely would love to be proven wrong with scripture, as I believe in being reproved to grow in wisdom and knowledge. Please try to help me here.

--
Dave

Michael

dave,

you make some good points. allow me to quickly respond. in the truest sense of the word, the church is a group of believers. so in the narrowest interpretation, anytime a lost person is present, that group of people ceases to be a "true church." i would imagine that every church in america has at least one lost person present, and we can't judge hearts anyway. more than the argument of is the church for lost people or christians though, the church is for God's glory.

it's important (for us anyway) to distinguish between the church and a "church service." what happens on sunday morning is not necessarily the same thing as church. it's a meeting with people, for a purpose. in Scripture, it might be more like peter preaching at pentecost.

during the week, small groups meet in homes. these are christians that meet together to study the bible, pray, do ministry together and provide acountability. this is probably more "church" than is sunday morning (in that narrow interpretation).

God is honored when people follow him - whether that begins on a Sunday or on a Tuesday. I don't think God is disappointed when a lost person enters the room of a church, hears the gospel, and is called to repentance.

so we make a distinction between the sunday morning experience (a church service) and the church in general. we are the church when a couple of christians serve, or meet together for prayer.

jason scroggins

dave, my brother,
i guess you missed the first part of my post that said " i've been a christian for almost 10 years." i got that salvation part, but i dont know about you, when i was saved, all of my problems werent solved. it seems we're on the same page here.
as far as what i think you are saying, i believe you are talking about the way A church should act, and not the way THE church should act. my qustion is: how can you decide whether a person is saved or not. i dont think you can. if there were two folks sitting on a church pew and one reaked of alcohol and the other one sang the right songs and said the right things, who would we be to say which is christian? maybe the guy that smelled of alcohol is an ex-pastor whose wife left him when times got tough and he believed in the lie that the answers were not in God. and say the guy that did everything right secretly doesnt believe, it's just a social thing that he goes to church. my point is, you cant tell, i cant tell. that is why i believe that love wins. in the church, if we love the sinner, love will win his heart. if we love the brother and sister, they will be encouraged, and love will win again.
i think of annanias and sapphirah. who would have know that they were withholding from God? only God. that's why he struck them down. they were a part of the church, yet no one knew their hearts were divided from God. no one could judge them but God and that same truth stands today. so i dont know why a person that doesnt "look saved" cant come to church.
now my question to you is, where in scripture do you see that only christians should be allowed in church?
asking the question "why not" can sometimes be a bit more freeing and offer another light on a situation. it's like looking into a house with two windows, we're both looking at the same thing, we just have two different perspectives.
i will study those books to see your point.
your friend,
jason

Dave Hendrickson

Michael:

You are absolutely right about lost people being present in church services, the church being for God's glory, and the redemption of the lost regardless of time, location, and circumstance. My emphasis here is on the intent behind the target audience for church services. I continue to assert that messages geared for the lost equally or more so than the believer are not completely Biblical.

I hate to say it, but I believe that seeker-sensitive and emergent church services are one of the major reasons why we have people like Jason posting comments like those above, where faith and truth appear to be ephemeral, wishy-washy, vague sorts of things that "they can't figure out." Instead of clear foundations of the Bible being preached, we get messages that tickle the ears, a mix of pop psychology, "life application skills," and modern culture. And then we wonder why people can't define what it takes to be a Christian when asked, "How do you get saved?"

--
Dave

Dave Hendrickson

Jason:

You have asked the question, "[W]here in scripture do you see that only christians should be allowed in church?" I never said that only Christians should be allowed in church. I asserted in my first post that (1) the unsaved do not seek God, (2) that church is designed for believers (although the unsaved may visit), and (3) when believers and unbelievers are unequally yoked, especially in church, this is bad. In my follow-up, I list various areas of scripture that point to the purposes of church and how they apply to believers. My main focus is that the seeker-sensitive model of church services is wrong, and that church services should be geared for the believers.

Many times, we differentiate between between church services and "the church." As Michael said, "what happens on sunday morning is not necessarily the same thing as church. it’s a meeting with people, for a purpose. in Scripture, it might be more like peter preaching at pentecost." I look at the first recordings of the church, and can see no real difference between the two; Peter did not say, "Hey, after we have a period of singing and preaching, we're going to do more believer-type-stuff in private." The two were one. Shouldn't we do the same?

That said, more specifically to your question, let's look at a few pieces of scripture. First, in 1 Corinthians 6, we find that we are commanded to judge matters between believers within the church. It is clear that the unsaved are not supposed to be the judges here, when verse 1 says, "Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints?"

In Matthew 18, Jesus talks about church discipline and correcting things with fellow believers. Again, it would not be fit for the unsaved to be the ones judging the matter here. "And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican." When was the last time your church had someone being corrected in front of the congregation? Is it not done for fear of offending unbelievers who may be attending?

Even Acts 4 11-12, when we have one of the first instances of the church meeting, says an interesting thing: "And when they had prayed, the place was shaken where they were assembled together; and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they spake the word of God with boldness.
And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul." We see that they were believers gathered together.

I realize that due to timing you and I posted on this blog and had our comments appear at once. Sorry that we don't have more of an interactive way to chat about this. Thanks for reading and responding to the best that we are able.

--
Dave

Jeanine

I just wanted to thank you Michael for not posting to your blog with huge theological words and pontifications, and for simply stating that it is our job to reach those who don't believe. It gets tiring and exasperating to have to weed through paragraph after paragraph of "scholarly" and puffed up arguments. God didn't call us to argue theology, but to win souls. Thank you for the way you respond in love, truth, and simplicity.

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    • My name is Michael Lukaszewski. I grew up in Jacksonville, Florida and went to school at Florida State University. I'm the lead pastor of Oak Leaf Church in Cartersville, Georgia. This is a blog of my personal thoughts and ideas, and does not necessarily reflect the official position of Oak Leaf Church or any other organization mentioned here.

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